Issue 13: The Science of Defiance
An Interview with Sunita Sah, Author of "Defy: The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes"
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I’ve been a fan of
for years. And how could I not be? A PhD and an MD?! Groundbreaking research on influence, authority, compliance, and defiance? An Ivy League professor? Also at home in both the US and UK? Occasionally willing to hang out with me at conferences?I wanted to talk to Sunita about her new book: DEFY: The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes. In it, Sunita asks: How do we stand up for our values when the world pressures us to abandon them? How do we challenge the status quo when our instincts whisper, “Go along to get along”?
These questions couldn’t be more timely. I’m excited to share our conversation about defying the status quo, navigating group dynamics, and Sunita’s hard-won advice for writers and academics.
CF: Why did you decide to write a book about defiance? What impact do you hope it has (or have you seen)?
SS: It really grew out of a lifelong question: Why do good people stay silent when something feels wrong?
Growing up, I was taught that being obedient was “good,” that authority figures were to be trusted, and that compliance was a virtue. But I started to see cracks in that belief early—watching teachers misuse their power at school, and later, seeing how doctors, nurses, and even patients in medicine stayed silent when they knew something wasn’t right.
As I moved from medicine into psychology, I realized: it’s not that people don’t know something’s wrong. It’s that the pressures to comply—social, professional, emotional—are overwhelming.
DEFY was my way of grappling with that, and of offering people the tools I wish I’d had growing up. Quiet, thoughtful defiance isn’t just possible—it’s necessary.
The impact has been so moving. Readers have shared how they paused, remembered their values, and made different choices—sometimes small, sometimes life-changing. That ripple effect is exactly what I hoped for.
CF: Here at The Collective Edge, we’re all about collaboration and groups. How might groups or group dynamics shape how and when we comply vs. defy?
SS: Groups have a huge influence on whether we comply or defy—sometimes without us even realizing it.
We’re wired to want to belong. Thousands of years ago, getting kicked out of your group didn’t just mean loneliness—it meant real danger. Even today, that fear sticks around. When you're part of a team or a community, the idea of standing out or pushing back can feel genuinely threatening, even if no one's holding a saber-toothed tiger over your head.
I see this all the time through the lens of a psychological process I discovered in my research: insinuation anxiety. It’s the uncomfortable feeling that if you speak up, you’re somehow accusing someone else of being wrong or untrustworthy. And it’s even harder in close-knit groups, because you’re not just risking your own standing—you’re risking relationships you actually care about.
But here’s the good news: groups can also be powerful amplifiers for defiance. There’s research showing that even one ally in a group, can help others to speak up and act when it matters. Just one dissenter can start to shift the whole group’s perspective. Often it doesn’t happen overnight, but it plants seeds.
That’s one of the biggest things I hope people take away from DEFY: defiance isn’t just an individual act. It can spark a ripple effect. When one person speaks up, it gives others permission to pause, rethink, and connect with their own values.
Groups pressure us to conform—but they can also be the place where new possibilities for change take root.
CF: In choosing whether and how to defy, I was struck by the tension between times where we need to listen to our gut and times we need to override our unconscious desires. How do you differentiate between times that our unconscious is helping or hindering our ability to defy? How do we know when to trust our gut versus question it?
SS: This is such a great question because it gets right to the heart of why defiance can feel so tricky.
Sometimes, our gut is spot on. What I call expert intuition—that immediate sense that something’s off—comes from real experience. It’s our brain putting together patterns faster than we can explain them. That kind of gut feeling can be a huge asset when deciding whether to speak up or push back.
But not every gut feeling is trustworthy. Sometimes what feels like intuition is actually our biases talking.
So how do you tell the difference?
For expert intuition to be reliable, three conditions need to be in place:
A predictable environment — one where the same kinds of patterns happen over and over.
Immediate and unequivocal feedback — where you quickly know if your action was right or wrong.
Repeated practice — a history of direct, hands-on experience with similar situations.
Think about a chess Grandmaster: when they seem to “just know” the best move, it’s not magic. It’s because they’ve spent years seeing the same patterns play out again and again, and they’ve been able to learn from immediate feedback every time.
In DEFY, I share the story of engineers at Morton Thiokol. When they warned that something was wrong before the Challenger launch, their “gut” wasn’t a wild guess—it was grounded in years of testing, learning, and practicing. They weren’t guessing—they were recognizing.
But often, when it comes to speaking up, those conditions aren't there. It’s a brand-new situation. That’s why you can’t blindly trust your gut—you have to slow down and question it.
When in doubt, pause. The goal isn’t to squash your instincts—it’s to slow down just enough to figure out which instincts are really yours, and which ones are just fear talking.
CF: I thought the chapter “Who gets to defy” was powerful. Here, intergroup dynamics again play a role. Defiance is a lot easier for those from high-status, privileged groups in society. What is the role of defiance in changing some of the biases and privileges in the world?
SS: This is something I think about a lot, because defiance isn’t equally available to everyone.
In theory, anyone can stand up and say “no.” But in practice, the consequences aren’t the same depending on who you are and where you stand in the social hierarchy.
If you’re from a high-status or privileged group, you’re more likely to be seen as “principled” or “brave” when you defy. People may even admire you for it. But if you’re from a marginalized group—whether because of your race, gender, socioeconomic background, or other factors—defiance can be misread as insubordination, aggression, or disrespect. The risks are higher, and the social penalties sharper.
That’s why part of changing the culture around defiance means recognizing these unequal realities.
It’s not enough to celebrate the idea of speaking up—we have to create environments where it’s actually safe for a wider range of people to do so.
One thing I emphasize in DEFY is that defiance isn’t just about individual bravery—it’s about collective responsibility. Those with more privilege and security need to model thoughtful defiance and make space for others to raise concerns, challenge norms, and be heard without punishment.
Real change happens when we stop expecting defiance to come only from the most vulnerable—and start expecting it as a shared part of healthy systems.
CF: What have you learned about writing/academic careers through the process of bringing DEFY out into the world? What advice do you have for those who are aspiring writers? Early career academics?
SS: If I could offer one piece of advice to writers and early-career academics, it would be this: Start before you feel ready.
When I first had the idea for DEFY, I kept thinking, I need to do more research. I need to get it perfect. I need to wait until I know exactly how to say everything. But the truth is, clarity comes from writing, not before it.
You figure out what you really believe by putting words on the page—messy, imperfect, early words. The refinement comes later.
Second, protect your curiosity. Academia and publishing can sometimes make you feel like you have to chase what's trendy or "important" in someone else's eyes. But the best work—the work that lasts—comes from deep personal fascination. Follow the questions that won’t leave you alone, even if they don't seem fashionable.
And finally, find your people. Whether it’s friends, mentors, colleagues, or even a few trusted readers, you need a small, solid group who will encourage you, challenge you, and remind you why you started when the process gets tough. Because it will get tough—but it’s absolutely worth it.
Bringing DEFY into the world taught me that writing isn’t just about getting published. It’s about starting conversations that matter, creating change in small ways, and connecting with others who are wrestling with the same hard questions.
If you're even thinking about starting—start. Your voice matters more than you know.
Dr. Sunita Sah is an award-winning professor at Cornell University and an expert in organizational psychology. A trained physician, she practiced medicine in the United Kingdom and worked as a management consultant for the pharmaceutical industry. Her multidisciplinary research and analyses have been widely published in leading academic journals and media entities including The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, Harvard Business Review, and Scientific American. DEFY: The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes is available everywhere books are sold. Subscribe to her free newsletter,
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An interesting interview and sounds like an important book. Does the book offer more clarity on distinguishing between good gut feelings and bias/fear/bad gut thinking?